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Matthew Jarvis  

Today’s episode is brought to you by Matt and Micah. That’s right, Micah and myself, in addition to hosting this epic podcast, routinely coach financial advisors on how to double their practice their net revenue in 12 to 36 months, depending on how hard you are willing to work, we are accepting new applicants into our coaching program. So visit theperfectria.com to get signed up or to schedule a call with one of our team members to answer any questions that you have. Alrighty, back to the show.  Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of The Perfect RIA podcast. I’m your host, Matthew Jarvis, and with me, returning to the stage once again our good friend Paul Saganey, who is founders to well, actually, Paul, you’re not the president anymore of Integrated, right? You’ve now handed that off. Is that correct? 

Paul Saganey  

Matter of fact, the big announcement comes out this week. So yes, Andre Moore, who’s been with us for many years of tremendous talent, being introduced as the president of our company. And so, so excited about that as a giant move for our company and in setting up our exciting future ahead. So thank you for bringing that up. 

Matthew Jarvis  

That’s incredible. And so for those of you that aren’t familiar, Paul The Integrated partners, you can of course, find his Kitzes’s episode, which was brilliant. He’s been on this show before. One of the things that, of course, be really well known for is this idea of the complexity curve, the term that you’ve trademarked, which is this idea I want to adjust the seal jump here in a second of as people’s net worth goes up, the complexity goes up, and helping advisors move up that curve with the clients, right? Because these clients desperately need help. Sometimes we’re under this false solution that these higher net worth clients, they have to go to the Goldman’s of the world, or the Merrill’s. What you’re showing, you’ve shown hundreds of times that a well trained advisor can, in fact, work way up complexity curve. So talk to us about the complexity curve, Paul, talk to us about the work you’re doing. 

Well, I appreciate that, and thank you. By the way, that last podcast we did was was exciting. We had a lot of questions and people reaching out. That was a great one. That was a great one. So I think that certainly, I want to be careful that every advisor has the desire, or maybe the dream, to work with what we call Ultra wealthier, ultra complex clients, but, but as we’ll talk about here, Matt, it does take a team. So in other words, certain expectations of a high net worth client and and so where we see a lot of advisors maybe not quite make the last step there and be able to become that typical clients, you know, advisor is just the lack of the team around them that support them every step along the way. But for us, you’re right, Matt, we refer to that as the complexity curve. It’s kind of two curves. It’s the their financial lives are getting much more complex, you know, owning businesses and getting more assets and larger qualified plans. But the really important part too is their personal lives are getting more complex. So marriages, grandchildren, unfortunately, maybe everyone didn’t chart exactly as you would hope on the day they were born. And so, so when you match those two complexity curves, and especially for those that want to work with wealthier clients, as you’re out there looking for potential referral professionals, state attorneys, CPAs, whatever it may be out there, you know, I think that advisors sometimes struggle about, you know, how do I get my messaging out there, and how do I get the right referrals? And so for us, we want that ingrained in all of our centers and the brains is that it’s a financial complexity matched with a personal complexity. And you know, Matt, I’ll be honest with you, I think that there are many, many times that people that give our advisors referrals, or I get referrals, that people don’t know the exact net worth of the person. So give your friends and family now you know exactly what they’re worth, but you do know what they’re going through difficult times, bad marriages or or, you know, grandchildren, issues and things like that. In other words, people are more apt to and willing to talk about their personal lives and the challenges they’re dealing with and so so you can kind of take a guess and see if someone you know has the attributes of a, let’s say, ultra high net worth client, but it’s certainly for us, you know, catching them at the right time as they’re going through these really life challenges, is when we can really beat our best and bring the most value to them.

Matthew Jarvis  

 That makes a lot of sense. And I highlight on the human element, that even sometimes it is, it’s easy to think like, well, at some level of net worth, you’re purely analytical and it’s purely business, but every network, you’re still a human being with kids and grandkids and Paul would love you to pull in the story a little bit more about having a team around you that can handle these higher networks like this isn’t something to go willy nilly into. This isn’t like, Hey, I discovered that my neighbor just sold their business for $40 million therefore I can go in like, you really have built it, integrated this team, and I’ve met a lot of your team members who can build really like this is something cliche, like, have an advanced market team, and we got some PhD who’s never actually done this. I mean, you’ve spent the last, what, 30 years, building out an incredible team. So talk to us a little bit more about that expertise thats required.

Paul Saganey  

I think, to our business model, which is, you know, working in our advisors work within accounting firms, and then give our advisors access to their wealthiest clients. So as a link to position two advisors, many times, the most difficult person to win over in the room is the CPA or herself. So they share a room with you, the CPA and my clients, and let CPA knows a thing or two. They’re listening, listening, and they’re trying to judge, you know, are you the right person for their client or not? And so, yeah, there’s two parts, I think, to bringing, you know, the type of superior wealth management to the table. One is just understanding the client’s goals and objectives and making sure that you are in a position to meet those goals and objectives. Okay, but the number two is, I think, that you know people that have complex lives, they don’t want to miss out on opportunities. Other words, a fear that they have is that maybe they’re not doing things exactly the right way, or maybe they’ve grown their current advisor. Or I heard that someone else is doing something else with their business, or they’re planning, I think I should pay attention to that. So it is that fear of missing out that really is a motivator for a lot of people. And I think, Matt, let’s face it, for all this here, we can only be experts at so much and and, you know, we’re all business owners and entrepreneurs and running staffs and running practices and doing this and that. And so it is truly impossible to be an expert at everything. And so for us, yes, it’s been my my passion. It’s been what I’ve been doing for so long, which to find the who’s who list of really talented individuals, from accounting to tax to legal to wealth management, asset protection strategies, various products are being used somewhat frequently in the wealthier community. And so really collecting names as I travel around. And every time I read an article really catches my attention, I track the person’s name, Google everything they’ve ever done, and then I’ll reach out for them and say, Hey, do you have 10 minutes or so? I’ve met some of the amazing people by reading something that gets my attention, reaching out, saying hello, and then striking up a relationship. And I think that that goes back to, once again, building that team. But you need to have that team not only just to put a great plan together but to make sure that you’re not missing anything. In other words, maybe you didn’t know about that a piece of the tax code or or that about an account structure, or maybe a certain way to sell a bit. In other words, you got to make sure you get the right people around the table you’re asking the right questions and that’s what we’ll call superior planning results that happen. 

Matthew Jarvis  

I like that. I used to keep it I don’t even know where it came from. I took a track. I just gave a quote taped to my computer monitor when I was a younger advisor. And it was it sets up the extent of the best wealth managers, the clients aware of problems they didn’t know they had, and then show them the solution. And I thought about this, you were saying, hey, when you get those higher dollar amounts, more and more concerned that you’re missing strategies. If only quality carries your experience, it will only because the checks are so large, right? And then businesses, or this net worth, and you’re saying, Well, I I know if I can do this a second time, right? This isn’t like 50k I say in my four 1k account. This is the 47 million that came from the ones business I’m going to sell. I’ve got to have this, right? But Paul back to the team of experts built the ones who seek out. What really happened to me is experts that have so much in the trenches experience, right? This isn’t like, Hey, I read about this in a book, and this should work. Be like, no, no, I really helped somebody sell their business for $80 million or I helped them deal with a grandchild who got divorced. And now there’s an issue that we need to kind of incorporate into our state planning. Because you’re saying a lot of these people you found by just being this endless student of the game and saying, anytime I find something that’s interesting, let me try now. 

Paul Saganey  

A good example is Russ Alan Prince and Homer Smith and myself, we wrote these two books together. And so I’ve known Russ forever from a combination of his articles, and he’s written over 70 books. And you know, he is kind of that, I’ll say Father, not grandfather. He’s like that, that father of the of the family office planning, and he works with multi billionaires, so he’s now in running our family office together with our team. And so, so that’s just a good example of reading about someone back when I was in my 20s, and following his private wealth services articles and paying attention every time he would write something, I was a sponge. And then we got to know each other. And here we are. Our firm is at a point where we’re now getting access to these ultra high net worth clients at a fairly consistent basis. And I reached out to Russ and said, Hey, what are you doing for the rest of your career? And before you know it, here we here. We are working together, doing books together, collaborating on projects, being an integral part of what we refer to as Integrated Academy, which is, you know, Matt when advisors join us. I don’t care about the size of their eyes, you know, typically they don’t, maybe have the, not the skills, but they don’t have the experience of working with Ultra clients. And it is an art to it. It’s an art, and there’s most definitely that. And so, as I always tell everybody, if you find yourself in meetings with people with complex lives and a lot of wealth. Say: Well, I could do this for you, or we do that. We if you start to do that approach, you might as well just pack it up and go. It’s the art of asking good and great questions. That’s what we refer to here. What are your good questions? What are your great questions? Interesting? And that’s where someone like Russ is amazing, because he’s just works with these families all the time, and he imparts his wisdom to all of us. And he actually, that is the one that gets he talks to all of our major CPA partners, literally daily. He’s out there talking to them. Does he really explain the work that we’re doing, getting them to be excited about it. And he just has a very direct style to him. He’s very direct. He is brilliant at what he does, and that brilliance just shines through. And the first couple of minutes talking with him, so he’s been a really along with Homer Smith. Homer Smith, who also wrote the book, he is just a brilliant Philly office practitioner. So he is, he’s involved with our largest clients. And so when you put the team of Russ with Homer, and let’s say the advisor of CPA, around a table, plus the other experts that are part of our family office team, you start to see that that client’s confidence going up, and you know something, we can promise them they’re not going to miss anything, or we’re not going to miss anything with this level of bench strength and level of talent and so, yeah, so just collecting those names and reaching out to them and then deciding when in your career it’s appropriate to add someone like that to your team. Or if you, maybe can add it to your team. How can you import it to your organization? That’s what’s kind of all about.

Matthew Jarvis  

Yeah, yeah, find an organization to join or import it on yours. Russ is a great example. And obviously you’ve done a lot of work. The two of you authored several books together, and I worry that some of the younger advisors industry aren’t familiar with Russ work, right? You know, back in the day, we all read the same and the same industry publications, and not quite the same today, but I put for our listeners, right? Go out and find some of Russ work and that Ultra High Net Worth space. He is one of the absolute best and Paul, it’s because, like you said, he has both the technical expertise, but to your point, he understands the art of it, right? I’ve been on calls with him and ultra high net worth clients, and he knows the questions to ask, and they’re almost, sometimes, I’d be curious, Paul, you guys, they’re almost questions where sometimes like, well, I can’t believe you just asked that question, but it was a question that needed to be asked, right? Like, hey, listen, if your grandkid marries the wrong gal and they end up getting divorced and she gets all of the money, like, you’re gonna roll over in your grave, that’s a question that needs to be asked, but it has to be asked, right, right? If you come in there and some kind of like, guys like this, I’m going to sell you a bunch of life insurance. We’ll try now where they’re going to see right through that. Russ is brilliant. But Paul, talk to us about a couple of books that you’ve done with Russ Alan Prince. You have some new books that have just come out that you’ve worked on with the Integrated team. Like, tell us about some of the things you’ve been creating. 

Paul Saganey  

Well, the book that’s been out there, the one that Russ and Homer and I put together, the first one was optimizing the financial lives of clients grateful. And that’s a book that we actually wrote managing directors of accounting firms, our wonderful forward from one of our largest accounting firms up in California. And it really does walk through our process of how we are doing our wealth management strategy inside of accounting firms. And we’re sure 188 accounting firms. So we’ve for 30 years, I’ve been doing this. That’s kind of my background. Or we think we know we’re doing we feel pretty good about that. But the second book was this. We wanted to have a book that our accountants and our Centers of Influence could hand to their wealthiest clients with pride and say, Look, you should take a look at this. And so that second book we’ve got is called making smart decisions. And in that book we talk, it’s really a book written for the client. So we tell them, we talk about our everyone wins philosophy, which is a Russ Alan Prince. Somebody talks about almost every single day, you know, we talk about the characteristics of the ultra wealthy and what they are looking for in a wealth manager. And so once again, with that thought of not missing out, the book is really designed to guide the family the process of finding the right wealth. Matter, what to ask, what to do, what should they expect? And then when they have that in their hands, they’re just in a better position to make really good decisions. And so for us, Matt, we are so fortunate. We’ve actually had our CPAs hand the book out to successful wealthy clients, and literally had a call saying, This is what I’ve been looking for, and how do we get process going so… So look, I know a lot of your listeners are great at marketing, and certainly marketing is an important part of we all do here, but for us, having this book being seen as the thought leaders telling the ultra wealthy client not what we can do for them, but what they should be looking for. That’s the magic of the book, is this is what you should be looking for and trying to pay attention to, and it puts them in a much better position to find that right team. 

Matthew Jarvis  

I’m glad you highlighted that point, Paul, to pull on that thread a little bit more, because it’s not just your book that takes that approach. It’s really all of your communication, which is kind of this, to use one of my cliches, right? Deliver Massive Value. Right? The book isn’t like, hey, look how great Paul is, and look how great Russ is, and look how great integrated is. It’s here are things you need to be watching. And I love this approach when I mean this perspective. Hey, listen, even if we never work together, please promise me you’re whoever you work with, you’ll make sure they take care of these three things. Like, it’s so important to me that these get taken care of. And I think a lot of times advisors go wrong on that. They say my market needs to be on me. Look at me. Look at my credentials. Look at my designations. Look how special I am. But you were taking a different approach is this is the most important thing you could possibly do if you if you call us, that’s great, if not just like, do these things. I mean, they could certainly take the book and deal with any advice that they want. It is a bit of a roadmap to follow. It’s not technical by any stretch, but it just gives them the tidbits and what they should be looking for understanding. And so to your point, it goes back to that whole everyone wins philosophy. What’s the advisor’s personal self interest? What am I looking for? What do I want with my practice? But then what’s the client’s self interest? What are they looking for? What are their goals and dreams? And then determining, is there an alignment there? Is there a way to put those two self interest together. And so I think that’s been my experience, that advisors will cross a large, wealthy, complex client, they just do themselves or kind of mash their way through and do the best that they can, and don’t take this comment the wrong way. But that’s probably why we are stepping in with so many clients, because we’re able to walk in behind others and say, I’m not so sure about that, or tell me more about this. And so as I like to tell everybody, when I give talks, I know people advisors always looks future hold, and I say, look, the second you walk into a client with a little bit of complexity in their financial life and their personal life, and walk out saying, I can’t do anything to help them, then I think we’re in we’re in trouble here as advisors. But that’s never happened. I have never seen it in my career, I’ve never worked on advisor, where we walk in the front door and then walk out the bat without making some material change to make things better. And that’s why I always, I don’t laugh, but I always say to advisors, don’t worry. You’re so bright for us all, because so bright. There’s so much of a mess out there going on, especially as people work their way up those curves.

Yeah, especially as you. On the note of when you’re out speaking and training with advisors excited to share with everyone that you will be joining us at the Retirement Tax Services Tax Summit in Phoenix at 25th through 27th so great opportunity for you now if you are not already signed up to see Paul in person. You can get him to sign one of his books. But to move up because of Paul events like this and other events you’re doing, right? This is really an opportunity to move up that complexity curve. Right? We keep saying here on this episode, hey, you need to move up the complexity curve. That’s the truth. That’s where there’s so much value to be delivered. But you can’t do it blindly. So Paul, what are some examples that you would give advisors? If you want to start inching your way of the complexity curve, what’s something they could do? Obviously, buy your book. But things that you recommend to advisors next week, next month, things that you’re training your advisors on. How do advisors, how do we start moving up that curve? 

Paul Saganey  

Study Group I was in years ago, brilliant. Other entrepreneur talked about something called BC and R, and I love that, because I use it all the time. So the first thing matter would be, just get your vision really clear. What do you want to be a year from now? Three years from now, five sure whatever that stage may be like, really have that vision clear. And then once you have that vision clear, you know everything’s not a shiny new object that’s going to take your attention away from what that vision’s all about. And then once you know what your vision, and let’s say your vision that works with ultra wealthy clients that have complex lives, the C stands for, build that team around you. Build that team of collaborators, those team of experts. So you got to make sure you have that capability team all around you in every single discipline. So the biggest that vision build that team around you to make sure that you can deliver what you want to promise. And then the hours reach. Okay, so don’t get all dressed up and ready to go for the party and have no party to go to. So you got to make sure that you know who you’re going to be talking to be it? CPAs, like in our space, a law firms, other wealthy people. You want to know what you like, because you’re in a better position to to design your message, design what you want to do, if you understand what’s important to your reach. And so DC our vision capabilities and reach. It’s been something I learned, once again, from a friend of one of my study groups. I use it all the time with advisors. It’s probably step one, by the way. Matt, in other words, yeah, it is. 

Matthew Jarvis  

That’s a really good point collaborators reach, which makes sense. I think sometimes we’re younger advisors, or if you’ve worked at a different spot, like the complexity curve, and you want to move up, you might seem like, Well, hey, I don’t know Paul, I don’t know Russ, Allen prince, I don’t know these people, but you had even highlighted earlier this episode, Paul, that these collaborators, they might not be necessarily people, you know. He said, Well, I’m just gonna, I’m gonna start reading every single thing. Like, obviously, Paul knows this stuff. I’m gonna go back and listen to his kids this episode. I’m gonna read every single thing he’s published. Paul can become my de facto collaborator, even though I may have never met him. Now, of course, you might just say, like, actually, I literally want him as my collaborator. I’m gonna call integrated partners. I’m going to become part of that Intergrated Team, but I just want to make sure that we don’t get stuck and as advisors saying, Well, hey, I don’t know anybody, therefore I’m stuck in the bottom of the complexity curve. 

Paul Saganey  

You know, there’s a line that I love, and I learned this years ago, and I’m sure there’s a book out by somebody, but your greatest competition can be your best collaborators. And I really do live my life that way. And I learned something years ago, we’re actually started reaching out to some of our biggest competitors, saying, Hey, I see your name all the time. We’re competing for the same things more you know, today, they’re great collaborators for us on tech projects that we’re trying to build together, or some family office work that we’re doing to say their RIA, what clients they can handle. And so I think that, you know, in this world of collaboration. Many times you’re who you think are your biggest competitors or your best people to reach out and talk to. So look, you don’t have to join us. This could be done easily on your own. You just have to put in the time, the effort, meet the right people. You know, I don’t agree with that thought that goes around, Matt, that you have to be with the biggest firms out there. I don’t think that’s the case, but you got to make sure you have the team around you. So that team of capabilities, that team of collaborators, and if you can’t do it on your own, then can help get you there quicker. There’s no doubt about firms like ours or others can help you get there quicker. Well, you should put the time and effort in, like I did many years ago. And so it depends on what your desire, what your dream looks like. 

Matthew Jarvis  

Paul, do you have any kind of sense without waxing too nostalgic, what type of time and effort after that is? I mean, obviously you’ve been doing this for decades. Obviously you’ve been doing this for decades, right? But if an again advisor, as soon as a day, I really want to move like but this isn’t like a 12 minute commitment, right? I mean, you even to this day, I know you’re a rabid student of the game. I…You’re constantly devouring information. What type of commitment like if you’re going to recommend to an advisor, hey, each week you really ought to be setting aside X number of hours to develop your knowledge. Like, does any number come to mind, Paul? Maybe half a day or full day? I would say it’s Yeah. You know, people like Dan Sullivan talk about focus activities and buffer activities. And so make this a focus project of your practice, and interview your goals going forward. And so I’m not sure what’s the time, because now, with things like AI Matt, the ability you can ask Chat GPT, you can’t hear from black, so you can just say, Hey, tell me this or that. You know, there’s a wonderful article that came out last week, a little bit controversial, and Russ Alan Prince put it in Financial Planning magazine. And he literally, he talked about the future of the industry, and how certain parts of our industry will not survive this onslaught of AI. You can always take a look at that. So I think that you know, for us, it’s about embracing who we want to be heroes to, keeping our vision really clear, understanding all the capabilities that AI is certainly shifting up to be a capability we’re paying very close attention to. We’re actually adding talent to our team met that are specifically their AI expert. They are they’re just amazing at what they do. They’re coming into our industry, and they become friends of mine who are really going to tap into their expertise. So that goes back to that team, once again, of experts around your capabilities. And so I think that I’ll answer this question correctly here, but, but I think that you know, it can be done. It does take some time, but I would say for me, I would have to wait every month until the magazines came out, trust in the state to read it. Now you can look at every trust in the state magazine that ever been printed, or you can say it can be the 10 best ways to handle the changing estate tax sunsetting provisions and we’ll get 10 articles in front of you so people tell you can do it a lot quicker, because the access to information is unlike any time in our history. Just put the time and know how to ask the right questions. That’s an important one. And every right question is to ask the AI system out there. But if you have the right questions, and you become too curious, I think that all these sense of curiosity about, Hey, what is Matt talking about? What’s Paul talking about? What can I look at here? Don’t get it like a pressure. Be curious. And you know, like all of us, we all learned by making mistakes, by rolling up our sleeves and getting in there and trying some things. And so you don’t make a mistake on the financial plan. But if you’re learning how to talk to people, you’re learning how to work with CPAs is like, I’ll make mistakes. So those are little mistakes. Never make a mistake on a plan to bring in the right make a mistake out there about the small ones to people. So when someone slams the door or yells at you or does whatever, but I think that there’s so much so information out there that wasn’t there 20-30, years ago, Matt, that this is not that complicated. No, but I’d like that initial point where you said, Well, you know, a half day to full day a week, where you say, Hey, this is now again all day Monday, or if it’s two hours, whatever the case may be, but you’re really committing to, I love that leverage technology, right? Leverage the accessibility of information, but you’ve really got to put it the time to make that work. 

Paul Saganey  

That they should be filled with personal business, with people that can help you. Other words, yeah, the local estate planning law firm, or attending your city’s, you know, estate planning council podcast, all your podcasts, and have a huge podcast. And so therefore that day is not just like researching things, meeting with the right people, calling the right people, just fill that day with activities that are going to move you further along that vision that you said for yourself, that’d be a wonderful thing. 

Matthew Jarvis  

Yeah, you can really go down some of those rabbit holes that great to go down. I remember a big Nick Murray fan. I think we’ve been around forever, and I committed to read every single news that I’d ever read. And so I started 10 years behind. And so every week I would read another newsletter. I eventually read all of them, just because I wanted to manage that communication. Paul, I love that you just kind of put yourself around either, essentially, these people who are really crushing it. Well, Paul, I always love our time because I feel like we could go on for hours. From you some action items, where some specific things that you recommend advisors be doing, and, of course, how do people learn more about the great work that you’re doing.

Paul Saganey  

Well… Thank you! To our website, integrated-partners.com, and there’s a bunch of information, a wonderful kind of media section where a lot of our articles and leadership pieces are up there. I guess even one bit of advice, you know, Matt, I think you do a wonderful job of communicating and talking to people. You know, get a coach designed to be self search method, get a coach. We’ve all had coaches, from entrepreneur coaches, financial planning coaches, guided me along the way. I would not be with all those people, so I would say, if I want a bit of advice, to find that coach, and Stan Sullivan has a wonderful book called who. So if you want to do something, don’t worry about how to do it. Just find the right who and have them kind of guide you along. And I think what you were is just amazing your program, and they love what you do. And so, yeah, just keep it going. Keep doing what you’re doing. But for your listeners, I would reach out and get help from someone like yourself.

Matthew Jarvis  

I love that. Thank you for that. I would say another action item. I want to echo something you said earlier, Paul, which is, be curious, right? It’s, it’s easy to say, Well, hey, Paul’s been doing this for all these years, and he’s got these books and these deals and this team. But how is he doing? Like, how did he build this? How is he communicating these complicated things, how does he come up with this two sides? Right? And really, just ask those questions again and again, which Paul I know from this episode, with your approach as well, you’re seeing someone just saw that you haven’t yet. If it stands sold it, whoever it is, how doing that again and again can make such a difference. 

Paul Saganey  

It’s out there. Just gotta look for it. 

Matthew Jarvis  

Well, Paul, thank you so much for your time. Really excited to see you again at the Tax Summit. September, 25th to 27th in Phoenix, to have you there and do sessions. Thank you so much for your time. And to all our listeners, untill next time, happy planning! Hey, before you leave a word from our sponsors. Hey everybody. Want you to take a quick look around your office and on your desk there should be the Retirement Tax Services Desktop Tax Guide. And if it’s not there, or if it’s not current, meaning you didn’t download it in the last month, go to retirementtaxservices.com and download the Desktop Tax Guide. This is a must have resource for every financial advisor committed to tax planning.